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The Future Of Dogs
The Future Of Dogs is Hosted by dog behaviour geek and qualified animal behaviourist Hannah Molloy. Jump into the ever growing conversation as Hannah interviews some of the worlds most groundbreaking professionals intent on shaping the future of dogs internationally in their unique field of expertise. How we breed, train, groom, study, campaign, buy and understand dogs is up for debate, what do you think the future of dogs should hold?
The Future Of Dogs
Episode 21: The Future of Dog Campaigning Part 2 - 'Dogspiracy' with Dr Marc Abraham OBE
Welcome to the first episode of Season 2, a season devoted top to tail to responsible dog ownership!
Hannah Molloy, our host and special guest Dr Marc Abraham OBE bring us up to speed on;
- What's happened in the world of campaigning during time gap between seasons
- What we can look forward to supporting in the campaign space over the next few years including the Responsible Dog Ownership 5 pillars for change
- The new Dogspiracy Documentary and how we can all work to end the global puppy farming trade
What part will you play in the changing landscape of dog ownership across the world? And what is your 'What if' question, that could change the world?
Keep in touch with Marc and the journey of the Dogspiracy documentary by following:
@drmarcthevet and @dogspiracy_official on intsa
And follow the work of The All Party Parliamentary Dog Advisory Welfare Group (APDAWG) to improve dog welfare and public safety via education and legislation by visiting www.apdawg.co.uk
More about your host:
Hannah is a qualified dog behaviour specialist in the UK with a degree in Animal Behaviour and a specialism in dog body language and pet dog behaviour. She's trained over 10,000 pet dogs in the last 10 years and written an illustrated guide to dog behaviour called ‘Whats my dog thinking: Understand your dog to give them a happy life’. She featured as one of 3 experts on the prime time Channel 4 television series 'Puppy School' and currently teaches body language and handling courses to vets, groomers and pet shops to reduce bite incidents and increase the handling and observation skills of these awesome, but often overlooked, fields of pet care. She currently works as a behavioural expert for Agria Pet Insurance and leads the campaign for responsible dog ownership with the All Party Parliamentary Dog Advisory Welfare Group in Westminster.
Big thanks to our season 2 sponsor Amplified Behaviour
www.amplifiedbehaviour.com
And you can train along with Hannah as a pet owner or a pet professional at www.amplifiedbehaviour.com
@amplifiedbehaviour @thehannahmolloy
Hello and welcome to the Future of Dogs podcast, a place for the whole dog world to come together and ask the big why and what if, questions that will shape the dogs of the future. Join me, hannah Malloy, dog behaviourist and body language expert, as we chat to some of the world's most groundbreaking professionals intent on enriching and evolving the future for dogs. This series is sponsored by Amplified Behaviour, my online video school where you can find quality dog behaviour and training advice at a fraction of the price, because I believe everyone should be able to afford the knowledge that they need to give their dogs the best life possible. Let's jump in to the next episode. To the next episode.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Future of Dogs. This is a whistle-stop tour of where we've been, where we are and where we could go in the dog world if we could craft a collective dream and work together to champion and change the way that we care about man's best friend, the domesticated dog. I'm a qualified animal behaviorist, dog behavior and body language expert that has never lost that childlike awe and wonder in the joy of asking why and what if? Why do we do that thing that we all do? When did we start to do it? Why did we start to do it and is it still useful to do? Do we need to keep doing it? And if we don't do it that way, what could we do instead? And I'm a big believer in chatting about challenging and creating space for questioning behavior, because I'm a scientist and there can be so much innocent joy in asking why's that lead us to decide to study or fund or change something. My heart is always going to be directed towards shifting our culture away from blame and shame and towards solutions-based conversations. So together we're going to meet some of the world's most wonderful game changers, industry pioneers that are happy to stand out from the crowd, speak up and champion the first steps of change in their unique fields. John Lennon was a dreamer, but, baby, he's not the only one. So if you're here right now and tuned into a podcast about the future, you are almost definitely one too, and it is so good to meet you Now.
Speaker 1:The dog world is vast and complex. It is full of powerful and passionate game-changing experts that all work really hard to change the future of dogs From dog owners the world over to brilliant breeders, dog rescue heroes, veterinary staff, trainers, groomers, pet shop owners, nutrition experts, dog walkers, dog sport champions, ring craft, kings and queens, researchers and scientists and charities, the police and local authorities right the way up to government and, in the UK, even royalty. The fact is, we're all totally dog mad, but with so many voices and businesses that are working independently in their own fields to improve animal welfare and education, it's pretty mind-boggling to navigate for the untrained ear. So we're going to go on a voyage of discovery to seek out new thoughts and new inspirations, to challenge our cultural norms and to boldly go where no podcast has gone before. The truth is, when you're studying behaviour whether it's the behaviour of animals or humans behaviour can become so beautifully black and white. In the field of behaviour, we're able to put the labels of right and wrong just to one side and ask what's the function of this behaviour for the individual? And over time, I and many other dog scientists have become more and more fascinated with the dog's environment, the human's behavior, our behavior. We are, after all, the masters and commanders of the fate of all dogs, aren't we, every single one of us, and I believe that we have a right and a responsibility to pitch in on this ever-expanding conversation.
Speaker 1:What should the future of dogs look like we have totally controlled the dog's evolution, the ones we buy and breed, feed and post on social media. These are the dogs that we promote to the next generation. We say this is a dog. This is what a dog should look like, act like, eat like, sleep like, dress like. This is how a dog should behave or be act like, eat like, sleep like, dress like. This is how a dog should behave or be cared for. But what are we aiming for? What's the conservation strategy for dogs? Dogs have been tweaked and shaped to fit our culture for tens of thousands of years because they're a competitive species to us. They want to eat the same things that we do, they take up large territories and they live in community with one another.
Speaker 1:The modern scientific community believes that dogs domesticated themselves because they did the maths and they thought, hey, these guys would be great allies. Look at all that spare food and those nice warm caves. Look at all of the animals they have in fences that are super easy to catch and eat. We're onto a winner here, guys. Let's buddy up. But have we really been the dog's best friend all these years? I'm going to spend the beginning of every episode reading some pretty outstanding guest bios to you and introducing you to the creme de la creme of the dog world. So it'd be fairly remiss of me to not fully introduce myself as your host. So hi, it's nice to meet you.
Speaker 1:I'm Hannah Malloy and I'm a qualified dog behaviour specialist in the UK and I've got a degree in animal behaviour and a specialism in dog body language and pet dog behaviour with families. I was a behaviour advisor for one of the UK's biggest rescue charities and I've trained over 10,000 dogs in 10 years to work as pets or as school dogs. Yes, you heard me right. I think being a pet dog is really hard work. And I've written an illustrated guide to dog behavior called what's my Dog Thinking it's a penguin book and it's been translated into many languages and sent around the world. And then I featured as one of the three experts on the primetime Channel 4 television series Puppy School. I've written education products for colleges and schools. I've trained vets and groomers and pet shops to provide courses on cooperative care that reduce bite incidents and increase the handling and observation skills of these awesome but pretty underappreciated fields of pet care. And I'm a passionate campaigner with the all-party parliamentary dog advisory welfare group. More on that in a hot minute and you can train along with me as a pet owner or a pet professional at wwwamplifiedbehaviourcom. I've got a ton of great courses and webinars there, and you can even do a level two qualification in dog body language with me too, or get in touch via the website if you'd like to book me to work with you and your dog.
Speaker 1:And I fundamentally believe that dogs are species. We have totally controlled that evolution the shape, the size, the form, such that in this generation we are their natural habitat, aren't we? The future of dogs podcast seeks to improve the very unnatural habitat that we've created for dogs in the 21st century. It is a whistle-stop tour of where we've been, where we are and where we're going a future that we get to shape by making these informed decisions right now. With the help of some of the world's most forward-thinking professionals. We're going to chew over some of the toughest questions together. Why do we breed and buy certain types of dogs? What do we need in the pet dog of the future? Why have dog bites on humans in the UK tripled in the last 20 years and what can we do to prevent dog aggression towards people and other dogs? Tripled in the last 20 years, and what can we do to prevent dog aggression towards people and other dogs? Is there an alternative to breed specific legislation? What could the future of grooming, training and veterinary care and campaigning and rescue look like if we chewed over our cultural norms together with a cup of tea and a biscuit? Well, that's what we're here to find out, so let's kick off.
Speaker 1:This is episode one of series two, and this whole series is a responsible dog ownership special. If you want to follow the story and add your valuable voice to these conversations, don't forget to like and subscribe to this podcast. Follow us on facebook and instagram and youtube. Just search for the future of dogs podcast. So where are we in time? It's a good question for anyone listening to a podcast about the future. It's currently the summer of 2025 and for the diehard fans of our show, you will notice there's been a mighty large gap between the end of series one and the beginning of series two, why you ask.
Speaker 1:Well, to help me answer that question and fill in all the gaps and give you the lowdown on what has been happening in the world of dog politics, it is my great pleasure to introduce you once again to my dear friend and campaigner, dr Mark Abraham OBE. There he is. Mark Abraham OBE, otherwise known as Mark the Vet. He's a practicing vet at Muse Vets in Rottingdean, which is near Brighton. He's the co-founder of the All-Party dog advisory welfare group and the author of Lucy's Law, both a book and a piece of groundbreaking UK legislation that bans the third party sale of puppies in the UK, making it illegal to buy a puppy without its mother present Super cool. He's also the author of Be More Mosquito, a fantastic book on the art of grassroots campaigning, and he's the star of recently released dogspiracy documentary, which I can't wait for him to tell us all more about. He also pops into schools on a weekly regular basis to teach kids kindness to animals and safety around dogs.
Speaker 1:Mark, it is such a joy to have you here. Hello, all right, so patient with my ridiculous series. One intro have we got time? Have we got any time to chat? Hello, all right, so patient with my ridiculous series.
Speaker 3:Have we got time? Have we got any time to chat?
Speaker 1:I think. So I've booked you for as long as I could because you're a very busy man.
Speaker 3:I know, Thank you for inviting me on again. Thank you for coming back.
Speaker 1:I get. I get the privilege of getting to hang out with you quite a lot, mark, but I know that a lot and a lot, and I do feel that's a privilege as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's really kind. Well, mark, I hope you can help me here. What we've got here is a huge time gap, like a vacuum of time For those that have been listening through Series 1 and they've just jumped into Series 2, like the last episode was November 22. So we were just going into the first dog bite problem event in Westminster and right now it's the summer of 2025.
Speaker 3:so can you help me to fill in this time gap, like what has happened in the world of campaigning and legislation, in that, in that period of time, I think I mean, first of all, thank you for all your energy and passion with all aspects of campaigning and and bringing what's going on kind of behind the scenes not intentionally behind the scenes, I mean, everyone's invited but sort of translating it almost to the, to the masses. Um, I think one of the things that we share well, we share a lot of things but one of the mantras we share is to be as inclusive as possible and to be as transparent and to be as kind as possible in terms of relaying information and making everyone part of the solution, which I think you do brilliantly, thank you.
Speaker 1:I learn from the best.
Speaker 3:And I think so. I think from the end of 2022 till now, we've obviously had your fantastic series of the dog bite problem question mark um three huge meetings in Westminster, minster um, which were very successful in one respect but, unfortunately, were met with deaf ears with the chief decision makers. Yeah, progress was made in so many ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to be fair, there wasn't a lot of time, was there like that? Last the last episode of the dog bite problem event series was June, and then it was just unfortunate that the XL bully thing.
Speaker 3:So the real people who needed to attend take note and then base their solutions and decisions on kind of ignored everyone. They didn't just ignore what we were saying, they ignored what the actual dog control coalition was saying, they ignored their own evidence. Yeah, and in a nutshell, that's's that's the frustration of campaigning. Often it's the chief decision makers that just do what they want at the end of the day and ignore all the evidence which is meant to be underpinning all policy, really, especially when it's their own evidence that they've commissioned. So we had those amazing talks, which was a great groundwork for everything that followed. Then we had a change in administration, which meant some pieces of legislation that were in the process of making progress were dropped. Some have since resurfaced, some have actually made it across the line and with a change in administration you get animal welfare usually pushed down to the bottom of the pile again.
Speaker 3:We turn on the news every day, a few times a day. People like myself have it on constantly. I'm fascinated by it and and equally as depressed by it, but there's so many issues going on that people would argue deserve more parliamentary time, more debating um time to, to, to discuss and and to make progress. Human issues, I guess, but as you know, you keep pushing and I keep supporting you. Most of the dog welfare problems are human issues, huge, yeah. So we have to be patient, we have to bide our time, but, most importantly, with grassroots campaigning, I think we have to keep these conversations going, because if you don't, if you don't keep the conversations going or I seem to people think either it's been fixed or it's just not important anymore, and especially with something like lucy's law.
Speaker 3:We campaigned for a long, long time to ban third-party commercial puppy and kitten sales. Um, and it was. It was really michael gove being the secretary of state and the planets aligning in that respect, plus a few other moving parts that allowed that to happen, because before that it wasn't shifting at all. And you know, the last row of the dice was to form the all-party parliamentary dog advisory welfare group, aptor, to construct a specific meeting that exposed the opponents. So it was about the planets aligning and you've just my point is a bit of a rant, but my point is you've just got to keep beating the drum until the right ear listens.
Speaker 3:That's really good, as in the correct ear, not the right ear or the left just turn your head the right and left ear of the right person is listening, um, and you just and I think that's campaigning in a nutshell you've just got to keep doing it until it's the right time to make that change and it's the right environment and you've got the right leave or a mechanism or vehicle of legislation. If that's required, um, to do it. And that's the frustrating thing, and we always hear why the things take so long, especially in parliament, and legislation. It takes so long because things need to be scrutinized. So, at the end of the day, you have a piece of legislation that works and is robust and is enforceable, which the the excel bully ban kind of hasn't done, and that's an example of a knee-jerk legislation that just hasn't worked because it ignored all the evidence. Yeah, so, um, it's a great case study. It's quite a depressing one, um, and that's a really, really good point.
Speaker 1:Let me just jump on that point that you made, mark, because it's excellent. I think a lot of people forget with lobbying that it is about the right place and the right time. But actually we can all get quite tunnel visioned on our area, can't we? As you say, you're listening to the news a lot. You have a perspective on the wider landscape, know landscape of what's what parliamentarians are having to you, know process, and I think, if you haven't been in to westminster and sort of walked in the shoes of an mp, honestly like their lives are bonkers. It's absolutely not. They deal with so many different issues every day, um, and it's not an easy thing for them to to go well, which of these things are important to me, to my constituents, to the, you know, to the whole country, and keeping that balance it, that's really not easy. So yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know like I think we can all become quite tunnel vision, can't we on our one, like, why is it so hard if this one thing would fix the world, like, but actually there's war and there's this and there's this is a ridiculous amount of of hats that each mp is wearing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, obviously, if you're part of a party, you get you often get told what to do but our but the flip side. It's up to us as grassroots campaigners to be imaginative, be creative with our campaigns to get A noticed and, b to be so relevant to the parliamentarians that, whatever their motive, to either look good, look like they care to hold a dog, we don't care. But for them to back a dog, we don't care. But for them to back a campaign and for it to then become cross-party appealing to ministers, hopefully, or preferably, improving human welfare as well. That's a big deal.
Speaker 3:To engage MPs, it's not just about animals, it's about improving human lives, human mental health, human disability, humans in domestic violence situations, etc. That all helps get noticed and it all helps be taken a little bit more seriously. And it all helps sometimes the MP to look good and sometimes, as I say, we don't care why they do it. If you want to look good and you want to look sympathetic and empathetic and caring and compassionate to your constituents, brilliant, we can provide tools for that yeah um, but just meet us for 20 minutes, half an hour, an hour, whatever you can manage, and and and that's the craft, I think, of grassroots campaigning.
Speaker 3:Remember, we're not paid to do this. There's a plenty of organizations that have public affairs officers that are paid to go into westminster, paid to do drop-ins, paid to do all the stuff that we do for free because we care, and that's another hurdle for mps and parliamentarians and ministers, or whatever you want to call them, to take grassroots campaigners seriously rather than public affairs officers of the major stakeholding charities and industry. So there's another hurdle that we have that they don't. And we're fitting in in our spare time and our busy working lives and we're doing it in trying to in windows that we're just desperate to go to Westminster, especially when we don't even live near London. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:And the cost of train travel. There's so many things that, as grassroots campaigners, obstructions that we face, that the public affairs officers of the major stakeholders, industries, don't.
Speaker 1:It's hard work and it's getting noticed.
Speaker 3:I think is the the biggest difference. But once you're in there and you're a good communicator and you can explain stuff in a very short amount of time to mps or ministers, um, you can start making progress. And you know, I was obviously in my mosquito book. We list the mechanisms and the levers of the petitions and the select committees and the debates and all the things that are out there that we all have access to that are pretty much free of charge. That can make progress. It's just a case of doing it properly and managing your resources responsibly so you don't get burnt out or sort of fed up with it all and give up.
Speaker 1:It's a really super book and it's, you know, full of these checklists as well, which I love. If you, if you're listening to this online, you can also check us out on youtube if you want to put a face to a name. Um, and, yeah, you can grab mark's book be more mosquito. It's just absolutely stunning. Um, really helpful, like practical blow by blow guide to how to really make change happen if you're just a very small in theory small individual.
Speaker 3:And I mean two things on that. One of the title of the book was there's a Dalai Lama quote if you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito, so be more mosquito. The other thing is I was campaigning for 10 years to effectively change one line in an existing piece of legislation, which was to ban third parties. So it took 10 years and during that period I knew because it was when you're campaigning like that, you're failing all the time and you're and you're finding a new thing to do, new avenue, new mechanism, mechanism, petition, do this, do that. And I kind of knew that if I was. I mean, I don't come from a background in politics, I'm a vet, so it was always biology, chemistry, physics and and um, politics. Law campaigning was just something that happened to sort of posh people in suits in in westminster. But it's relevant to all of us and we will. It's accessible to all of us, westminster or wherever you live, parliament, and they do work for us. Um, it's just providing the solutions for them to work with. That's, that's super important.
Speaker 3:But I was my point being, with the 10-year campaign, you don't have the resources. As a grassroots campaigner, you're not paid, so you don't want to burn out. So I kind of wanted to make a guidebook to assist people in the process of campaigning so they didn't um mismanage their resources and they didn't waste their time. Because which MP do you meet? When do you meet them? Yeah, when do you hold a rally outside parliament? All these things are explained, but it's really easy to get wrong if you haven't done it before. Yeah, so I've done all the getting wrong bits for everyone and and I was, and I was so keen to go right I know it doesn't work. This is the stuff that you can focus on that does work, so you don't waste your resources.
Speaker 1:It's so good, mark. It's so good and you know it makes change so much more accessible for people who have passion, and I think you know the biggest takeaway that I've had from you is actually building a really solid team is so important, and you know if it is your passion project, if it is your passion project, if it's something that's on your heart to do, um, you know, go easy, because if you can't get too emotionally connected, obviously you are emotionally connected because you want to see that change happen.
Speaker 1:But it's being able to um, separate yourself from it in some ways and and also get other people on board to be around you, to to see that change, because it is incremental and it is frustrating. I am ever the optimist and always going well, we'll do that in like five years and Mark's like it's gonna take a bit longer than that, but sure five years would be great it's mad how long it takes, but you know, as I said before, if it's, if it, it's going to be done properly yeah, it needs a decent amount of time devoted to it.
Speaker 3:So if you are a grassroots campaigner and you want to change something, and not even even not even in the animal welfare or dog world, any protection of vulnerable population um, you have to be prepared to take your time. It's like a massive game of chess, as you say. You have to be a team player, you have to be willing to collaborate, um, and anything is possible really. You've just got to make, provide a solution that's workable and enforceable, um, and then kind of corral everyone towards that.
Speaker 3:Essentially and I was, I write in the book, you know, call it the ambush you surround the chief decision maker with the public wanting it, the select committee wanting it, celebrities wanting it, cross-party MPs wanting it, and you give them nowhere to go, really. But that whole constructing the ambush is the stuff that takes the years and the strategy and the patience and the collaboration, but it's doable and it and it I say, fun in the looser sense of the word. It's incredibly stressful and very depressing and very lonely, but it's worth it, yeah, it's all worth it, yeah ever sweet to the victory if you know that you've been like working at it for so long and you know, technically don't have the resources to do it compared to lots of other big organizations.
Speaker 1:You said earlier, mark like just to go back a little bit in time again and then jump forward. So we did the three-part event series, the dog bite problem campaign, and we looked at what the data said. And then the second part we looked at is it the dogs? We said, are we just living in a generation of dogs that is generally more aggressive? And this the general conclusion from everybody there.
Speaker 1:And we had some amazing um experts um dr helen howell, who's going to appear in a later episode, um and uh, loads of amazing work. We had um daniel shaw brought his neuroscience perspective. We had a whole ton of guests, um, and you can check a lot of those out still are on facebook. If you go to um the dog bite problem, they're all still there. You can look at all of those presentations that were that were brought um into westminster. And then we did the third part and that was the solutions event. And you know what do we do with this. The unanimous decision was no, it wasn't the dogs, it was definitely people like it's definitely our problem and we haven't got enough data. And then part three we looked at the solutions and we came up with really solid, great solutions that might improve this narrative. But what else? At that time, mark was going through in terms of legislation and either didn't go through or has been changed and has now gone through instead?
Speaker 3:either didn't go through or has been changed and has now gone through instead. Yeah, so there's I mean most people be aware of the kept animals bill, which was a nice piece of legislation which contains sort of five main things. Dog wise, it was um puppy smuggling was a big deal in that bill, and also pet theft reform, so actually making pet theft a specific offence. So they were the two dog related ones. There's also primates as pets and banning livestock um exports of sheep and cattle. You know some other stuff was in there. Um, so that was it was. It was just so sluggish through parliament and it wasn't making any progress. There's all these rumours, why and how and what's going on, and the queen sadly passed um and that sort of put an end to all campaigns and legislative journeys and then, of course, when things started up again, there was a snap election yeah so stuff that had made progress through so primary legislation, which the kept animals bill was um.
Speaker 3:These five pieces of legislation within this one bill made progress.
Speaker 1:Just to clarify it, primary legislation is you're writing the law origin. It's original law. It's like the first time, it's a bill all right, it's a bill.
Speaker 3:So that was dropped. Yeah, then it resurfaced.
Speaker 3:It was split up into what's called private members bills, so mps took one of those five pieces and and they had their own bills to take through parliament okay um, the pet theft reform bill which was championed and campaigned painful, brilliantly by debbie matthews and dr dan allen, who are heroes of mine and they deserve so much credit and respect. Um, that had made so much progress through the commons and the lords that actually, when the snap election was called, it was involved in the wash up, and the wash up means anything that's nearing royal assent just gets passed in the day. So pet theft reform got passed in that day. Unfortunately, the puppy smuggling bill which was at the time being championed by a devon mp, conservative mp called selene saxby. That hadn't made enough progress so it was dropped, lost.
Speaker 3:Since then in the new administration it's been um of repurposed, if you like, to a guy called Danny Chambers who some of you may know is a Winchester Lib Dem MP and a vet Awesome. So he's now taking this bill which is basically banning of puppies, the import of puppies under six months of age, which is amazing because it means they can be properly vaccinated against rabies. It can be properly enforced because obviously the teeth change at six months so visually you can tell if a puppy is six months or less. Um, and obviously they're much more robust to travel after six months.
Speaker 3:What that is underpinned by, which is even more important, is they're not cute anymore yep so no one wants a six-month old puppy, so this is a really important piece of legislation. We submitted uh evidence during the uh. I mean, since 2019, we've been pushing this dogs trust as well. It's been one of their main campaigns. Um, there's no opposition. It's sailing through uh, already sailed through the commons. It's sailing through the lords and that should be law, probably by Christmas or early next year. That's huge.
Speaker 3:So that's the ban of the import of puppies under six months, which is basically trying to end puppy smuggling. Now you'll always get people as I have the Lucius Law saying they'll still do it. You know they'll still sell puppies without the mum. They'll still. Yeah, okay, let me just remind people who are the naysayers. People steal speed. People steal steal. People steal murder. Just because a law changes doesn't make everyone behave themselves. If it did, there'd be no police speed cameras. Lawyers needed it. Changing a law provides a framework to investigate and then potentially prosecute. Okay, so before you jump in and say, well, people will still import puppies on the six months, yes, of course they will. People will always try and break the law. However, now there's a framework to actually do something about it.
Speaker 1:Let's just crush that one, and that's no reason to ever do anything. If someone was like well, they'll do it anyway.
Speaker 3:Actually, I was going to say you'd be amazed at the trolls I get, but you probably wouldn't, because you're on social media and you see all that stuff all the time. It can be a bit disheartening, though, and a bit pathetic, because on the flip side it's like well, what are you doing then about anything, apart from sitting there going like this and finding fault? Um, anyway, so that that's just by the by. But so, um, pet theft reform. So pet theft is now a specific offense. Um, so pet theft is now a specific offence.
Speaker 3:Amazing, puppy smuggling bill will cross the line unopposed and be law. So those are the two dog-related pieces of legislation that have well, I'm delighted to sort of report back that have made progress. It's amazing. And they've made progress because people have signed and shared petitions, people have contacted their MP, people have cared enough and they've told their parliamentarians that this needs to change. And the parliamentarians have, I guess, have been overwhelmed, they've been ambushed, um, into doing the right thing and talk about working together. I mean this.
Speaker 3:These, these are examples E-petitions, debates. Just, you know, some of these charities make it so easy. You can just type in your email address and where you live and it goes straight to your MP. So technology is helping in that respect and it all helps. And really if you see a petition, don't ignore it. You know they all have 10 000 signatures. Government petition anyway, 10 000 signatures gets you an official response. It's usually just a sort of a pacifying comment which is infuriating really. Um, and then the hundred thousand gets the debate. And the hundred thousand debate means a it's being talked about. B you get the. If you know your mps well and you've got relationships, really good relationships you've made with them, they'll share you briefings sent in by any organization or stakeholder, usually industry that opposes that, um, that potential change in the suggested change in legislation. And then you and then the campaigning really starts, because then you can unpick it with the mps and the ministers. Yeah, but it's, it's the best start to any campaign is the hundred thousand debate.
Speaker 1:It's amazing without a doubt. I read in your book as well actually, that's, that's specifically in england. We're right, we're talking about changing law in england.
Speaker 3:There's a difference in the uk parliament is is the hundred thousand.
Speaker 3:But then the, the devolved nations, so nations where they have their own legislation in some aspects often yeah, okay, so they can do things differently yeah, and the other thing to I guess to report is lucy's law at the moment is in england, scotland and wales, so it's illegal to sell puppies without their mums, without seeing them interacting with their mums in all those territories. But northern ireland because stormont was inactive for a few years over the lockdown period which is the northern ireland uh administration. Now they're active, so there's there's currently, as we're talking now in august um, a consultation out on lucy's law for northern ireland um and I'm working both with northern ireland teams and with defra. There's a few things that need ironing out, that weren't ideal when the when lucy's law came in um, but I think we've got them under control.
Speaker 3:The the issues with northern ireland, just briefly. Obviously it's the gateway to the uk mainland from the republic where there's lots of pub farms and that's, under eu legislation, complex. But also there's some puppy farms in northern ireland which were featured on a there's documentary called the Dog Factory, which most people have probably seen and are still a bit scarred and traumatised by, and quite rightly so who are via a loophole which is an intentional misrepresentation of the actual legislation allowing puppies to be bred on Northern Ireland and sold without their mum in two pet shops in the northwest of the of England, which is a obviously a nightmare for local authority inspectors because they're trying to, um, they're trying to, enforce Lucy's law but they can't because of this loophole that DEFRA have have put in. So we're going to try and close all that up, tighten it up, obviously, with the puppy smuggling bill coming in Lucy's Law in Northern Ireland. There's so many again, it's what I said before about the mechanisms and levers available. Hopefully by the end of this year we can tighten everything up.
Speaker 3:That's what she said, and we can, you know, move on with a much more robust system for puppy buying, puppy breeding, and with every change in legislation or even suggestion of, or even e-petition or select committee, comes education, because it's talked about, and when it's talked about, we talk about it as public or campaigners, charities, but also the press can pick that up and if you're talking about it in social media and you tag in various media outlets, maybe they can pick it up and turn it into a story which, as you know, you know, emphasizes and accelerates stuff. Yeah, you know, if it's picked up by the media, wow, you know, look at it, go. So there's, there's loads that we can do, we do and we can help direct the traffic. But it really does help and I say this specifically because of my experiences it really does help if the major animal welfare stakeholders are all aligned, all saying the same thing, all their logos are on the same briefing and they're saying to the government government, this needs to happen and why.
Speaker 1:It's an exciting time, like I'm feeling. You feel the hope actually now. Obviously we had. We had the XL bully ban, which took about a year really for everybody to just process, and and then we had a new government and that was a huge period of time. And now we're in the new government and there's so much hope on the horizon. As you say, there are welfare bills that are getting passed. Um, you know, some old legislation is getting put through. What else mark like what this year? Can we really look forward to? What would you? I mean, obviously you get to hear all of the dog world uh campaigns. You get thrown absolutely every single one as the secretariat of the dog world uh campaigns. You get thrown absolutely every single one as the secretariat of the parliamentary group for dog welfare. And you smash out, by the way, an amazing newsletter.
Speaker 3:So if you're not on the outdoor newsletter like my six, six to eight hours a month um pulling stuff in. Yeah, I mean it shows.
Speaker 1:It shows it's really detailed.
Speaker 3:It's a blessing and a curse, but I think it's good. I mean from a branding point of view. It's a touch point, obviously with dog lovers. Yeah, it's free, yeah, kind of enjoy doing it. It makes me actively seek out what's going on and, yeah, you know, sometimes when we're trying to change laws in this country we can look for examples in other countries that we can then go to mps and ministers say, well, well, they've done it and we're meant to be the nation of animal lovers or dog lovers.
Speaker 3:So if you haven't subscribed a little bit of a plug, it's a free newsletter but, it's appdogcouk and you just put your email address in on the homepage and every month, just imagine you're sitting there resizing pictures and changing fonts and all the rest of it. But it's so worth it and I also listed the relevant petitions to sign and share yep um, so yeah, get involved and and join in and and just be part of it all.
Speaker 3:Really, as we said right at the top of the shows, it's so inclusive dog welfare. Everyone has a voice, everyone can play a part. Everyone's got a particular skill set and everyone's got a certain amount of time that they can devote. Even if you're sitting on the loop and you retweet a petition link, you're part of the solution and you're a campaigner essentially. So we it's not just campaigners who go into westminster. You can sit on your sofa, you know, and and share something, or or talk about something, or bring someone up and tell them about something.
Speaker 1:That's all campaigning yeah you know, you don't need to be in parliament to make a difference what I've loved about appdog as well mark that you have just laid as a foundation which is beautiful is is because you do invite everybody into that conversation. I know it's something that we did on the Facebook page when we put up all of the presentations. That happened because followers of AppDog were getting live stream during COVID. And I think.
Speaker 1:Then they were like oh, I've actually got to go to parliament. And so we were like well, how do we find a, a happy medium? We'd love you to see some of these presentations, and so many of our presenters filmed their presentations or just gave us copies of their, of their powerpoints. But I love that you create an environment where people are able to learn to disagree. Well, because we need more of those spaces. It's easy to be a keyboard warrior and like throw a heavy opinion down, but to be able to be in the same room with other human beings who have a really, you know, a very different opinion to yours and to debate, well, like that is the spirit of government, like that is what, that's what we, you know.
Speaker 1:That's why they speak to each other, you know, with honour. In theory, they used to.
Speaker 3:And I was always keen to provide that environment because of my campaigning journey. I mean to have access to some of the rooms that we present in. I mean the rescue one every February is Committee Room 14, which is where Churchill used to brief the MPs during the Second World War. You've got Committee Room 11, which is our normal one. There's still 100-odd people in there, it's so beautiful. You've got the River Thames. It's in the palace.
Speaker 3:Everyone is respectful. I have to say the words that come out of people's mouths in those rooms are worth so much more than anywhere else. If that's, everyone listens, everyone respectfully just shuts up um and we make progress and we air issues and and, to be honest with you, the evolution of outdoor because we started eight years ago has become picking topics that are so important in the dog world and human world that we can then invite mps along and some do come. They're so busy. So it's huge, huge compliment for them to come um and we can then suggest those topics for select committee, for example, to then drill down on, have inquiries, and that's kind of the first ladder, uh, the first rung on the ladder, of new legislation or what's important or what's relevant at the moment. So I think it definitely performs a really important function of highlighting issues, getting experts in, getting people to talk about it.
Speaker 3:Respectfully, as you say often, we'll have a drop-in beforehand, so, mps holding up those placards, we'll always, thanks to agria, have a networking event at a nearby bar afterwards with plant-based food. Keep the kindness vibe going um, and we make progress and it's become a community and, honestly, the number of people that come who I'm pretty sure didn't think parliament was for them or didn't think that they could ever go there or were ever invited there or even could were relevant to step foot in there and I think that's one of my main missions is to say look, parliament is actually for everyone. Yeah, we can all come in, we can all enjoy it and we can all get something out of it. And hopefully it'll inspire some of you to think of campaigns or start or support campaigns of your own, and I think it is doing that.
Speaker 3:And the vibe in there, I think, is unique. I think it's exceptional because everyone is fueled by compassion, by kindness, by empathy, by doing the right thing for dogs. And now we're, you know, we have the rescue sector, one which is hugely popular. Obviously, we have the link between animal abuse and domestic violence.
Speaker 3:In November, we're going to have accessibility's, an assistance dog we have the unsung heroes every december to shine a light on um, on, you know, people doing good stuff that haven't got a budget or haven't got a platform to tell the world. Like some of the big charities and january, I think we're going to do um, excessive breeding for extreme with dan and um, and then it's rescue again and it's like this rolling organism which we're not going to drop topics just because we want something new. We're going to keep them going every year in their slots until significant progress is made and this is the point about keeping conversations going.
Speaker 3:It's not about about oh, let's do that event, drop in, get a celebrity in. I mean, we've had Diane Morgan, michelle Collins, will Young. We've had some amazing people giving their support for free, again for free. But if we keep on doing them year on year and we keep gaining momentum, we're more likely to see some sort of change in progress. If we stop, it stops Because it either doesn't matter anymore or it's been fixed. Yeah, so, by rolling these on and I'm more than happy to do this, obviously, because I'd love it and I've found some sort of weird niche in my life where I didn't even know this stuff existed 10 years ago um, we, we can bring people with us and create these movements and see change happen. It's huge.
Speaker 1:And it's always the conversations that happen in the bar as well that afterwards it's those little moments of networking collaborations. Yes, absolutely right To decompress oh you did that and I did that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's huge, 100%.
Speaker 1:So what are the key players on the field this year, mark? What can people be looking out for? What big changes on the horizon? I know I've got some that I can think of, but what for you are? They're like oh, this is exciting, this has just happened, or this is this really needs your backing.
Speaker 3:I'd like to see more um, progress made with the the animal abuse and domestic violence, yeah, scenario and Ruby's Law, which some of you know about. If you don't, then definitely come along in October. It's National Domestic Violence Month, october 21st. We've got Christina Warner doing the Ruby's Law presentation, plus a few domestic violence and their pets, testimonials and survivors. The police to take it more seriously to arrive on a crime scene and look at the police to take it more seriously to arrive on a crime scene and look at the evidence of animal abuse as well as human abuse, and for judges to take it seriously when they're sentencing the history of animal abuse, which some do, but not all. So, with Mark Randall, obviously the god that is Mark Randall, who works with Nature Watch, who's an ex-copper, who's driving that particular campaign with nature watch, um, and obviously christina from ruby's law.
Speaker 3:And then, and just to make you know, as I said, the accessibility, the disabled, uh, the 11th of november is the assistance dogs. What's an assistance dog? You know we traditionally guide dogs, then maybe hearing dogs and then just dogs who are disabled, all the, all, the all the, let's say, posh jackets and then, on the flip side, you go online and you can go, uh, emotional support dog or service dog jacket and stick it on your dog and you arrive at a venue. Why can't I come in? So there has to be some way of of legislatively controlling the vocabulary used for these situations. Yeah, otherwise I mean, every dog is an emotional support dog.
Speaker 3:Surely it's difficult it's really really difficult and it causes a lot of problems. And you've got you know, you know, you've got you know the horrific situation which is Steve Darling, who's the MP I think he's the MP in Dorset who's blind and has a guide dog. His wife is also blind with a guide dog, and he told me a story where he ordered a taxi. He heard the taxi arrive. They obviously came out of their house with two guide dogs and he just heard the taxi drive off again. But that's illegal, wow, because you know.
Speaker 3:So how do we get around this? How do we control this environment of discrimination, potentially, and accessibility and inclusivity? So you know, the more we understand the human animal bond, the more we understand how dogs integrate with our lives, with our modern lives now, um, and kind of need to be everywhere with us. Um, I just find it fascinating and you'll always get the brands who put dogs first. That will just go streaks ahead in terms of popularity, positivity, um, and and I and I like shining a light on the people doing good stuff rather than looking at people doing bad stuff. It's a. It's a much less stressful environment to work in Absolutely Showcase the good kind of ignore the bad. Maybe it's the same as stressful environment to work in. Absolutely Showcase the good kind of ignore the bad. Maybe it's the same as training a dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like positive reinforcement.
Speaker 1:It's focusing on the behavior you want, isn't it? That's exactly it.
Speaker 3:It's focusing and showcasing and making a really big deal and congratulating and yay, you've done that. And then everyone goes. Why are they getting all that attention? Hang on Like for getting all that attention hang on like, for example, this year in the book they're gonna have the innate health assessment is about to be launched, which is the exciting thing.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna let dan rowena, in another episode, explain that in more depth, but that is one of the things that we really want to do is celebrate um brands that don't use animals with extreme confirmation in their advertising, and that's what we're going to do. We're going to launch your website and go look all these amazing people who have done the work, understand the problem and are not going to use extreme confirmation in their advertising what you mean.
Speaker 3:You mean like a bulldog riding a skateboard yeah, which ironically is being used on the asa advert for appropriate and responsible advertising call it out, mark call it out, call it out.
Speaker 1:Contentious and hard, it's true. It really needs to be.
Speaker 3:I don't mind calling people out.
Speaker 1:I've got a medal, so I don't care he's got a medal, he's got an obe, he doesn't care anymore. All the gloves are off, let's go um. That's important, exactly, and that's been frustrating, I know, for many who've wanted to change the amount of dogs with extreme conformation in the public sphere.
Speaker 3:I mean, I was on the tube yesterday, right, I was on the tube in London and it was one of the hottest days. It was the fourth heat wave and there was this Frenchie in the next part of the carriage and its mucous membranes. Gums were just engorged. It was so on the verge of, I think, just heat stroke or keeling over or both. And I had a bottle of water with me and I said to the owner and everyone was looking awkward in the carriage and I said to the owner please just take my water, pour the water over your dog, pour it in the just do something or remove the dog at the next stop and go outside because there's an arbor in the carriage.
Speaker 3:He went no, it's fine and I was like I was like with, with respect, not that I have to be, but I am a vet and you do need, your dog does need to cool down somehow. So here's my bottle. Don't even argue about taking it. Here's my bottle, do something with it, because your dog is probably going to die if you don't cool it down at some point. And confrontation on London Underground isn't often encouraged. But he did take it well and he did smile and he did thank you, uh, thank me, um. And I walked off thinking I've done something and I would have been gutted if I hadn't. Um, but it just shows it's. It affects all of our lives and it's present. The extreme stuff is really present. The other stuff I'm obviously passionate about as well, which we haven't mentioned yet, is the greyhounds.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know, exploit, exploitation and abuse I've clapped like I'm excited about it, but we've had some change there, haven't we mark?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean wales, thanks to people like vanessa at hope, uh, again, coalition with uh dogs, trust with blue cross, with rspca all calling it out, all getting behind a phased ban, and it's only phased because they want to control the number of dogs coming into rescue. If you banned it immediately, it'd be overwhelmed. Yeah, it wouldn't work. So that's huge progress. You've got progress in scotland uh, with mark ruskell, who's an msp green msp who's kind of leading the charge brilliantly, his team and one kind of absolutely fantastic making progress private members bill. Yeah, unfortunately, we're nowhere near that in the in england yet because we have one of the major stakeholder charities refusing to back a ban.
Speaker 3:Uh on, uh on greyhound racing. I'll let you guys do the research, but, um, but again, if wales can do it and new zealand have just done it and scotland are on the process of doing it, it's almost like, well, they're all doing it, yeah, it's gonna happen and that's a really powerful lobbying force. Um, when you're grassroots campaigning and it and it and it really puts parliamentarians in a difficult position because again, we're meant to be this nation of animal lovers and we're letting them down. Yeah, and the numbers of injuries and deaths are going up and we go and the industry's going, oh, no, no, but it's, it's getting better, well. Well, it's not no, um, and you can't justify it.
Speaker 3:And if it was pugs being raced or cockapoos in the conditions that they're kept in, no chance. No, it's true, because they're, let's say, not as interesting to look at. I mean, I love greyhounds and one day, when all this campaigning stuff dies down, hopefully one day I have some spare time I want to adopt, you know, rescue, at least one, maybe two greyhounds, um, but because they're not fashionable and seen on the arms of celebrities or in adverts, they're kind of not seen as that exciting. So they can be abused and they can be exploited and they can't just be just treated if you've ever met a greyhound, that hasn't been a racing greyhound.
Speaker 1:They're nuts like. They have so much energy, so much personality. They're wonderful, though. I mean all. They're wonderful dogs.
Speaker 3:I mean all dogs. They're amazing dogs.
Speaker 1:But you just don't know. People think greyhounds are really chill and serene because they have been battery farmed and not given any stimulation and they are shut down, just like battery farmed hens, many of them when they come out of the racing world. So yeah, it's just total. They need an entire rebrand. As far as I'm concerned, racing greyhounds it's just yeah, it's not fair on them at all. That is so exciting. I really want to touch upon your biggest campaign move right now, but before we do that, mark, I just wanted to quickly mention that, off the back of that responsible, off the back of the dog bite problem event, we did come up with some solutions, didn't we? And we are, over the process of the next couple of years, going to roll out more and more detail about this, but what we really wanted to say is that we we came up with five key areas that we thought really needed to change, based on the evidence, um, that we are sort of failing on when it comes to responsible dog ownership, because this is a responsible dog ownership special um, and the first one is breeding and and rescuing dogs. So the way that we access the dogs in this generation, that we the where we're getting dogs from the dogs that we're getting. Um, there's no regulation around that area and it's a really big problem. Okay, so we're not sourcing dogs. Well, this is when people say why are people getting bitten by dogs? Why are people being irresponsible? Number one, we're not sourcing good dogs. A lot of the dogs that we're getting are our puppy farmed, have had a really bad first start. I've been bred from unhelpful parents, have been shipped halfway across the world or they've come from Dodgy Rescue. So that really needs fixing. The second thing that we found that we want to bring in as a solution is that we don't really understand dogs, and that's a big one not being able to understand what dogs need, how they communicate. So really educating the public and children about dogs is a big key area for responsible dog ownership that we're going to be championing over the next probably 10 years easily.
Speaker 1:And the third area that we really found was a problem was that the industries aren't regulated, and Mark and I started working together in 2018 when you did that original meeting, you know, should dog trainers be regulated? And the truth is is that we still need that to happen. Dog training, grooming, dog walking all of these industries are completely unregulated, and that's something that we really want to change. The fourth area is that we don't keep clear records about anything. We're not collecting data on any of these areas, you know. So where we want to send incredible researchers out to solve problems, they are dealing with clanky data that doesn't bring solid conclusions.
Speaker 1:And then that fifth area was that we're not enforcing, and these were the like five, like if you were going to shoot the problem. And when everybody goes. Well, the problem is that we aren't breeding dogs properly yeah, it's true. Or the problem is that we, um, uh, you know, people don't understand dogs and they keep getting bitten because they're not reading body language. That is true, uh, or, you know, we haven't got the right data, or nobody's enforcing. All of these things are true, and so that is what we're going to. Off the back of that campaign, we're building this um five point vision that we're going to continue to go after and make sure that these five areas get improved over the next sort of 10 years. So, just to you know, really support those that are listening, that have been going well, what happened, and now what? And what's next? That is what Mark and I are hoping to achieve in that sort of area.
Speaker 3:And you know, back to that point, wine, I mean about provenance, really, and about, you know, people doing the right thing, responsible dog ownership, and even that term ownership is now being questioned by certain individuals and organizations. Let's just like, make progress before we start relabeling everything. Yeah, um, but, um, you know, for example, lucy's law making it law to always see puppy with his or her mother, um, that's, it's a small step in the right direction in in this huge problem. So now, you know, legally we can only buy a puppy seeing, seeing him or her interacting with their mother, uh, or rescue. Those are the two options which I was always, always passionate about.
Speaker 3:Obviously, people are going to try and break that. We've still got puppies being imported that are young. We've still got this loophole from Northern Ireland. So it's important to celebrate the small steps, but it's important to then, with the other hand, keep making progress and keep banging the drum and keep these conversations going. Because, as you've just described, banging the drum and keep these conversations going because, as you've just described, these are huge, mammoth pieces of awareness, changing behavior, maybe even legislation, but it is up to us as humans, um, to do, to all do something about it, and luckily we've got appdog and we've got people like yourself and Dan and Rowena, who are so leading the charge with making change happen. But they're not going to be able to do it unless we all get behind them and we all do our bit, and we all can do our bit, and we all should do our bit, and most of us are. We just need to know how to do it properly and you've been really into the breed.
Speaker 1:The breeding part, like the breeding piece, getting good dogs to start with is actually. I mean, I've split them into five areas, but I'd say that first one is heavily weighted. It's probably bigger in lots of ways than all of the rest. Being able to breed and raise good puppies is huge and you've continued on with that, uh mark, haven't you? So tell us about dogspiracy, I am really excited nice everybody to see this.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a huge thing, isn't it? Breeding is the area that you've been lucy's law and now dogspiracy like actually stopping puppy farming is never going to stop being something that you're passionate about. How to tell us about dogspiracy?
Speaker 3:yeah, thank you, and I think that it is down to us to make these responsible decisions as potential owners or caregivers or whatever you want to call them, humans. Um, so I was approached just before lockdown by a production company, actually based in Prague, and they wanted to make a show about dogs quite a generic show about dogs and they invited me to be a contributor, like a just a normal talking head giving my opinion. And I read the treatment and the treatment is different to what the treatment would be in a room like this. Uh, the treatment for a tv show is like the synopsis of the show. Um, so I read the treatment. I was like this is nice, um, and very comfortable, but it's not really going to change the world. And with my campaigning head on, I kind of rewrote it in a very nice and respectful way. I put myself in this presenter, because otherwise I would have had to explain to the presenter what to ask the contributors honestly. And, um, and I said, look, this is you can either make a show about dogs or you can make a show that changes the world for dogs potentially. And they were like, oh, hello, um. So they came over to brighton from prague, I took them for a cup of tea on the pier. It was a lovely sunny day, which I think definitely helped and I said look, these are the arcs I'm suggesting.
Speaker 3:So behind the scenes of campaigning, dog breeding and selling, plus a huge promotion of adopting rescue dogs, and then we go to America. So we've seen that we can make change happen in the UK, but there's so many places in America the majority of states in fact that puppies in pet stores is still normal and they're being bred in the Midwest they're also being bred by certain populations. What do you mean? What do you mean? I said well, let's look at the treatment that I've rewritten. There's an amazing woman who, if you don't know of her or you haven't met her, you'll know her from the documentary once you've watched it and she's called Grace and she runs Finding Shelter, which is a rescue shelter, foster, based in Pennsylvania, and her mission in life all she does is she drives around the Amish puppy mills all day, every day, rescuing ex-breeding dogs or puppies that are going to be destroyed, probably, um, and the breed puppies for third-party sellers or pet stores, um, and she's incredible. She's one of the most inspirational and phenomenal people I've ever met.
Speaker 3:Um, I won't give you too many spoilers, but my point is we made this sort of documentary synopsis and they kind of gave me free reign. So we had access to MPs. We had access to some amazing rescues. So again, vanessa at Hope, eileen, friends of Animals Wales, rosie Duffield, mp. Caroline Lucas MP, roger Gale, mp so cross-party. We also went, as I say, went to the States and we interviewed senators. We took one of the senators, a Republican senator called Tracy Pennycook, undercover to the Amish puppy mills as we rescued the dogs and took them to the vet for checkup.
Speaker 3:And it's kind of, as I say, it's behind the scenes of grassroots campaigning, sharing the frustration. Just because everyone's on board and everyone's saying the same thing doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen. We expose the individuals and organizations that are that essentially progress being made, mainly in America. And yeah, it's 97 minutes, it's a proper movie. It's more of a movie documentary than a documentary movie. It's filmed in a very cinematography-minded way, edited and the music, and I'm incredibly proud of it and I think what I want people to take away from it is, first of all, adopt if possible, but also, again, we can all do something. This is how frustrating it is to be a campaigner, but, as rosie says, rosie duffield says who's the outdoor chair, by the way, um, it's, it's up to the public to come to parliamentarians, to mps, with problems, more importantly, with solutions, so they can do something about it come on you know, and, and it's a really nice sort of whirlwind tour, even though it's 97 minutes of stuff that's going on here, stuff in the states.
Speaker 3:Peter egan's in it, ricky gervais pops up at some point, so does rachel riley, um, and it's a lovely way of saying we can all do something to help our four-legged friends. It's, it's. We shouldn't leave it up to other people, whether it's grassroots campaigners, celebrities, major stakeholder charities, politicians we can all do something. And again, like we said earlier, it's not even just about animal welfare. It's a really good example of just how to campaign and change. So if you have a vulnerable population that you care maybe more about than others elderly, disabled, send kids the tools in the movie can help with that campaigning too. It's just a really nice example of how they can be used, um, so yeah, I'm proud of it.
Speaker 1:I want everyone to see it, obviously it's really good and it's never been more important right now, mark huh. And then in the age of technology, where it is almost impossible for us to not constantly be distracted by this horrendous phone that everybody is addicted to, you know yeah like now.
Speaker 1:We really need to remember to, to share the things that we care about and really press in to important issues that we want to see changing. And I just want to say it's a great movie. I was privileged to get to see um uh, to get to see it when it first was aired, and well you, you came.
Speaker 3:You came all the way down to Brighton to the private screening and I'm so glad you did. I mean, this is August now and we're about to have International Dog Day in a couple of weeks, so it's going to be screened across the country and in lots of cinemas Very exciting and then it will be out on a streamer.
Speaker 1:And for those of you who are like thing thing is, I don't want to see a film that is going to make me really really sad. Um, I hear you. I just want to reassure you that mark has done a really great job of bringing the issue to the fore without people like losing it. Um, with the footage okay. So it's been really delicately handled because we appreciate most of you like you know, yeah, who wants to see puppies in puppy farms?
Speaker 1:but we need to be able to look at the issue. But he hasn't made a horror show, so just that's all I need to know.
Speaker 3:It's important, I mean, and we know it's sad and you can't you can't make a show about this stuff without showing some sad stuff but it's not horrific and there's love, it finishes on a positive and there's lots of opportunities and windows of hope throughout. So and my some of my stupid jokes as well. So, yeah, it's not all doom and gloom and there is a bit of sad stuff in it, but it's not a surprise and it's not too bad that you can't sit through it no, it's really, really watchable.
Speaker 1:Um so, don't worry. If you care about animals, you should definitely watch that documentary. It's important thank you really cool, really exciting. Okay, so check in with appdog at apdawgcouk. How can people find you, mark, if they wanted to find out more about you and what you do and just stalk you gently.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm not on Instagram because some Dutch vet stole Mark the vet. He's only posted four times and he wants to set up his own clinic. So he won't give me the login details and give me the account, which is annoying.
Speaker 1:You can make a new one, be a different. Mark the vet, really Mark the Vet, the Mark the Vet.
Speaker 3:I know that's awful Listen. So Facebook, yeah, the Facebooks.
Speaker 1:The Facebook the.
Speaker 3:Facebook, uh-huh, m-a-r-c. The Vet, easy Cool Twitter, which is now called X, I believe, mark LeVert, m-a-r-c-t-h-e-v-e-t, and then also on LinkedIn. I think it's actually my name, mark Abraham, on LinkedIn, I can't remember. Anyway, I guess Twitter and Facebook are the main ones, but they're Mark LeVert and Mark LeVert. That's why Instagram I'm reluctant to stray.
Speaker 1:You could just skip Instagram and go straight for TikTok. Miss out, you could just you could just skip instagram and go straight for tiktok miss out the entire millennial generation far too old for tiktok.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, follow my stuff and I update it quite regularly. Um, and as you said at the beginning, I do lots of school visits as well. Uh, so if you're sussex based and you have kids in primary school, I do secondary as well for sort of career stuff, but I quite like my school visit's called um furry friends and feelings, so it's about caring for animals, looking out for one another. We bring human mental health in as well, which I think is really important, and also safety around dogs. Um, and sometimes, if you have a bit of extra time and depending on the time of the year, we can talk about fireworks and dogs, or excess, excessive features and confirmation, exaggerated features or um dangers for summer. I you know, I always throw out to them, especially in the summer. I say that how would you stop the public walking their dogs on hot pavements and roads? Yeah, because I, I I struggle every year to crack this one I know it's huge.
Speaker 3:It's huge, and the only decent explanation I've ever got not just from the primary school kids, although they often give the best answers is just to encourage people to obviously don't walk them or walk them on grass in the shade in the morning and evening, but wear shoes.
Speaker 1:You know a lot more dogs are wearing dog shoes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's still too hot, though it shouldn't have to come to exactly some, specifically, you know, midday or one in the afternoon, when you see dogs being walked, how do people not know? It drives me nuts and I have to talk to people like the guy on the tube. I have to say, with respect, did you know? Maybe they're a lockdown first puppy owner that just hasn't had the experience of owning a dog and they, they want that information because they genuinely didn't know about it. You know, some people are like thank you for telling me. I hadn't even thought about it. I mean, you're a moron, but I'm glad we're not having any confrontation right now, but it's a tough one and I I'd love to see a national campaign absolutely where all the big major stakeholders work together and collaborate and go right.
Speaker 3:It's summer, do not walk your dog.
Speaker 1:You know what in the sun royal veterinary college have some amazing infographics on this area and have brought out some really fascinating research on it. I think the stat that I heard the other day was that dogs with extreme conformation so that might be mean like a flattened face um, particularly a flattened face. Some of these breeds are 16 times more likely to die of heat stroke than dogs with normal conformation. So a normal length, nose, a tail, etc. Um, that's great.
Speaker 3:And then you have certain breeds, I mean greyhounds. They do. Some research done, I think, by lincoln university a few years ago, found that greyhounds are susceptible. I mean they're the longest nose, yeah yeah, yeah, true and they're susceptible. And then you have the greyhound tracks racing them during the heat waves. Gosh, no, and it's like what? What is going on, you know? Oh, they're just greyhounds, you know. So we can all do better.
Speaker 1:We can, we can and we are doing better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, and it's. You know, people like yourself and, as I say, rbc and Dr Dan Allen and all these players who need the population of dog owners and lovers to keep signing and sharing petitions and keep supporting campaigns and just keep these conversations going, because if we let them stop, nothing happens.
Speaker 1:So true, so true, mark. Thank you so much for joining us on behalf of all our listeners. I am just so excited to have had you here for episode one, to kick off this responsible dog ownership.
Speaker 3:Uh, series, series two, and yeah, thank you for everything that you have done, are doing and will continue to do and thank you, hannah, for all the stuff that you've just said about me, but also thanks to all the listeners for sticking with us till the end of this one. But also just think about what you can do, and I don't mean start a campaign or go to number 10 or something like grand and mental. Just think when you see a petition sign and share it. You know, maybe write to your mp, maybe maybe organize a small event that raises awareness, because it all helps and we, we can all do it, we all have the tools to do it, and sometimes it's even fun to do this stuff too so true, and together collaboration is absolutely.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, mark. It's been a pleasure having you on the show. I'm sure we'll see you again very soon. And that's that's been us for episode one of season two of the future of dogs. We hope to catch you again next time and that's all for another episode of the Future of Dogs. Big thanks to our sponsor, amplified Behaviour. Your host and producer is Hannah Molloy, technical direction, audio and video producer is Mark Gossett and the graphic designer is James Whipps.